Shadowcaster 2.0?

[Wolfrin Fenris]

I've been wanting to use the various magics from Tome of Magic for a while now, but they seem largely underpowered. From a fantasy and RP viewpoint, the ideas behind their construction are amazing and I think the roleplay would be quite fun, but from a mechanics standpoint they just seem very underwhelming.

I was searching around for good shadowcaster fixes and adaptations for pathfinder, and I found this particular take on it. From what I understand, the person who did this tried to meld the Warlock and the Shadowcaster, with slight alterations to both. This is the link to the original thread http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12234.0 .

Now in that thread a couple people debate the merrits and balance of the class, and you can see that the OP has toned down the class somewhat, but I wanted to see what people here thought of the balance.

So any comments on if its balanced or why not, suggestions on how to balance it, and why you would make the changed you suggest are greatly appreciated :)

The Shadowcaster


"This vast, dark dimension, a coffers holding limitless power, has remained largely unknown and untapped for centuries. I stand on the precipice of this abyss, staring deeply into forces so old that stars uncountable have winked out before their unravelling dark, and I am in control. Of myself and of these potent energies. What other mage can make such a boast?"  - Dorian Strange, Dark Human Shadowcaster.

Alignment: Any
Hit Die: 1d6

For reference, and to lessen confusion, keep in mind that serial numbers have been filed off here. Mysteries are what used to be Invocations according to the Warlock. Spells are what used to be Mysteries according to the Shadowcaster. This is because the way mysteries used to work was retarded and incredibly restrictive, so I just made them spells and that seems to correct a large amount of problems.

After that, trying to keep some of the flavor, I felt at-will shadow powers could still definitely be called mysteries, thus I changed the name of the ability from invocations to mysteries. This Shadowcaster's Mysteries work almost exactly like a Warlock's invocations worked.

Most of the old mysteries (that are now spells) have been altered, sometimes dramatically, so it helps to have Tome of Magic open and to check out the changes made when evaluating this class.


Class Skills (4 + Int modifier): Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Disguise, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Any; taken separately), Listen, Move Silently, Profession, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, and Use Magic Device.

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: A Shadowcaster is proficient with all simple weapons and with light armor, but not with shields.

Spells: A Shadowcaster casts arcane spells in the same way a Wizard does. He knows each spell on the Shadowcaster spell list (given below), but must prepare a number of them for the day, a process which requires 1 hour of meditation. Given his pseudo-supernatural connection with his spells, a Shadowcaster may cast his spells while wearing light armor without risking arcane spell failure.

His bonus spell slots per day and the saving throw DCs of his spells are determined by his Charisma modifier. A Shadowcaster must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 + spell level to prepare or cast any spell.

At 4th level and every four levels there after a Shadowcaster may add any spell with the [Shadow], [Acid], [Cold], or [Fire] descriptors to his spell list so long as it has a spell level no higher than his highest available spell. Any [Acid], [Cold], or [Fire] spell cast by a Shadowcaster gains the [Shadow] descriptor and deals half its damage (if any) as negative energy.

Shadowcaster Spell List

Spoiler

* - These spells have been altered from their original state as printed in Tome of Magic (see spoiler after spell list).

1st - Bend Perspective (ToM)*, Black Fire (ToM)*, Carpet of Shadow (ToM)*, Caul of Shadow (ToM)*, Life Fades (ToM)*, Mesmerizing Shade (ToM)*, Nightshield (SC), Ray of Enfeeblement, Shadow Binding (SC), and Voice of Shadow (ToM)*.

2nd - Afraid of the Dark (ToM), Bolster (ToM), Congress of Shadows (ToM), Darkfire (SC), Flesh Fails (ToM)*, Resist Energy, Shadow Cache (SC), Shadow Skin (ToM)*, Sight Eclipsed (ToM)*, and Thoughts of Shadow (ToM).

3rd - Clinging Darkness (ToM)*, Dancing Shadows (ToM), Dispel Magic, Flicker (ToM), Gaseous Form, Shadow Vision (ToM)*, Umbral Touch (ToM)*, and Waves of Fatigue.

4th - Aura of Shade (ToM)*, Curtain of Shadows (ToM), Greater Life Fades (ToM)*, Languor (ToM)*, Shadow Conjuration, Shadow Storm (ToM)*, Step Into Shadow (ToM), and Unveil (ToM).

5th - Break Enchantment, Echo Spell (ToM)*, Ghost Dragon's Breath1, Pass Into Shadow (ToM), Shadow Evocation, Warp Spell (ToM)*, and Waves of Exhaustion.

6th - Feign Life (ToM), Forbiddance, Greater Dispel Magic, Greater Flesh Fails (ToM)*, Power Word Blind, and Voyage Into Shadow (ToM).

7th - Dark Soul (ToM)*, Ephemeral Image (ToM), Finger of Death, Greater Shadow Conjuration, Truth Revealed (ToM), and Umbral Body (ToM)

8th - Far Sight (ToM), Flood of Shadow (ToM), Greater Shadow Evocation, Shadow Plague (ToM)*, Soul Puppet (ToM), and Tomb of Night (ToM)*

9th - Army of Shadow (ToM)*, Consume Essence (ToM), Ephemeral Storm (ToM), Reflection of Things to Come (ToM), Shadow Surge (ToM)*, Shadow Time (ToM).

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Altered spell Effects

Spoiler

Army of Shadow - Summon 4d6 Shadows (MM), 2d6 Wights (MM), 1d6 Elder Shadow Elementals (ToM), and 1 Nightcrawler (MM). The rest is as normal.
Aura of Shade - As normal + Creatures that attack the affected creature with non-reach weapons area dealt 1d6 cold damage. Creatures grappling with the affected creature are dealt 6d6 cold damage per round.
Bend Perspective - As normal except that you may switch the viewpoint as a free action up to twice per round (even when it's not your turn) and doing so doesn't reduce the duration.
Black Fire - Loses the [Cold] descriptor. Gains the [Fire] descriptor. Area is up to five 5ft squares and up to five extra 5ft squares per four caster levels. The damage is Fire and caps at 5d6 (minimum 1d6). While the spell is in effect you may spend a move action on your turn to rearrange the spell's area. The rest is as normal.
Carpet of Shadow - Area is a 20ft radius spread. Any creature that passes through an affected square must succeed on a Fortitude save or be sickened for 1 round. The rest is as normal.
Caul of Shadow - Duration is 10 minutes/level. For the duration you also gain a +6 bonus to Hide and Move Silently checks. The rest is as normal.
Clinging Darkness - Creatures in the area of the spell when it is cast and creatures that later enter that area are dealt 1d6 cold damage per round even if they successfully save. For the duration of the effect, any creature that failed its initial save against the spell must continue to make saves against the Immobilized condition even if they are no longer within the area. The rest is as normal.
Dark Soul - Duration is 1 minute/level. When you focus the shadow energies on one living creature and that creature fails its save you control it as if via Dominate Monster. The rest is as normal.
Echo Spell - You may echo a spell or mystery of any level, up to the highest level of spell you are capable of casting. The rest is as normal.
Flesh Fails - Deals 4 Strength damage and 4 Dexterity damage and 2 Constitution damage. The rest is as normal.
Greater Flesh Fails - Deals 2d4+4 Strength damage, 2d4+4 Dexterity damage, and 1d4+2 Constitution damage.
Life Fades - No saving throw. Victim is Fatigued until it rests for 8 hours and the effect can stack with itself. The rest is as normal.
Greater Life Fades - No saving throw (see text). Range changes to Touch, Target changes to Creature Touched. Victim is Exhausted until it rests for 1 hour, then it is Fatigued. If the touched victim is already Exhausted it may make a Fortitude saving throw to avoid falling Unconscious for 1d4 hours. If the save fails the victim is Exhausted after it awakens.
Mesmerizing Shade - Duration 1d6+1 rounds. The rest is as normal.
Shadow Plague - Not much like Incendiary Cloud at all. As Solid Fog except that each round creatures within are dealt 4d6 cold damage and must succeed on a Fortitude save to avoid gaining 1 negative level each round. The rest is as normal.
Shadow Skin - As normal except that the Duration is 1 round/level.
Shadow Storm - Loses the [Electricity] descriptor, range increases to Long (400ft +40ft/level). The storm deals 1d6 cold damage per level (max 20d6). It deals no electricity damage (but it is shot through with red bolts of negative energy). Targets must succeed on a Will save to avoid being Frightened for 3 rounds (if primary target) or being Shaken for 3 rounds (if secondary targets). The rest is as normal.
Shadow Surge - Duration changes to 1d4 rounds. The rest is as normal.
Shadow Vision - As normal, except that all creatures (not just you) have total concealment with respect to the subject.
Sight Eclipsed - As normal, except that Range changes to Touch, Target changes to Creature Touched.
Tomb of Night - As normal, except that the creature gains 1d4 negative levels in addition to taking Constitution damage if it fails to escape.
Umbral Touch - As normal, except omit entirely the paragraph discussing how the spell occupies one of your hands. That is all rubbish and no longer applies. Oh, and the Slowed effect lasts 1d4 rounds.
Voice of Shadow - Duration changes to 1 round/level. The rest is as normal.
Warp Spell - As normal, except that if you succeed on the opposed check you may gain control of the spell rather than counter it, assigning its range, area, targets, and all other parameters as if you cast it yourself. If you choose to counter the spell you recall a single spell you had prepared that day but already cast as if using a Pearl of Power. You may only recall spells in this way that you consider supernatural abilities (see Mysteries).

[close]

New Spell

Spoiler

Ghost Dragon's Breath
Evocation (Compulsion) (Shadow) [Cold] [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Shadowcaster 5
Components: S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Area: 120ft cone emanating from you
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will partial
Spell Resistance: No

You open your mouth and release a howling wave of dark energy dealing damage to creatures in the area as if they were struck by your Shadowblast. Creatures damaged in this way are entitled to Will save to avoid being Blinded and Deafened (permanently) and Confused for 1 round per level, but a successful save does not reduce the damage dealt.

You may omit any number of 5ft squares from the area of Ghost Dragon's Breath.

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Mysteries: In addition to casting spells, a Shadowcaster unravels arcane Mysteries, tapping inexhaustible supernatural powers. At first level a Shadowcaster knows a single Apprentice Mystery (see the lists below) he learns an additional Mystery as detailed in the Mysteries column of the table above.

A Shadowcaster may use his Mysteries at will. The saving throw against any Mystery is made against DC 10 + 1/2 Shadowcaster level + Charisma modifier. A Shadowcaster's Mysteries do not allow spell resistance. Like his spells, a Shadowcaster must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 + spell level to use any Mystery.

At any level when a Shadowcaster learns a new Mystery he can also replace a Mystery he already knows with one of the same or a lower grade (the grades of his Mysteries are Apprentice, Initiate, Greater, and Master).

Unlike normal supernatural abilities, a Shadowcaster's Mysteries have somatic components and can be disrupted (Concentration checks may be made to avoid disruption). Mysteries that mimic a spell's effects gain somatic components if they didn't have them before and lose any other components they normally have, but otherwise retain all normal costs and qualities. A Shadowcaster's Mysteries are subject to arcane spell failure.

When a Shadowcaster gains a level in any prestige class that advances arcane spellcasting he adds his levels in that class to his Shadowcaster levels to determine his Mysteries known and the highest grade of Mysteries he is able to learn.

Starting at 6th level may a Shadowcaster learn Initiate Mysteries, and his 1st level spells are considered supernatural abilities for all situations in which it would be advantageous (but not is situations where it would be a disadvantage). These spells are still prepared as normal, and they still take up spell slots. They have a casting time of 1 standard action (or less), they automatically overcome spell resistance, and have a save DC of 10 + 1/2 Shadowcaster level + Charisma modifier. They gain somatic components if they didn't have them before, but lose any other components they previously had. They may be disrupted as normal and otherwise retain all normal costs and qualities.

Starting at 11th level he may learn Greater Mysteries, and his 2nd level spells are considered supernatural abilities.

Starting at 16th level he may learn Master Mysteries, and his 3rd and 4th level spells are considered supernatural abilities.

Shadowcaster Mystery Lists

Spoiler

Apprentice - Baleful Utterance, Beguiling Influence, Breath of the Night, Call of the Beast (CM), Darkness, Eldritch Glaive (DM), Eldritch Spear*, Entropic Warding, Frightful Blast, Hammer Blast (CM), Leaps and Bounds, Miasmic Cloud, Otherworldly Whispers (CM), Scalding Gust (DM), Sickening Blast, Spiderwalk, Summon Swarm

* - Eldritch Spear changes the range of your Shadowblast to Long (400ft + 40ft/level).

Initiate - Baneful Blast (CM), Beshadowed Blast, Brimstone Blast, Charm, The Dead Walk, Dread Seizure (DM), Eldritch Chain, Eldritch Line (DM), Fell Flight, Flee the Scene, Frightful Presence (DM), Hellrime Blast, Hungry Darkness, Voidsense, Walk Unseen, Wall of Gloom, Weighty Utterance (DM)

Greater - Aura of Flame (DM), Bewitching Blast, Caustic Mire (CM), Chilling Fog (DM), Chilling Tentacles, Enervating Shadow, Hellspawned Grace (CM), Hindering Blast (CM), Noxious Blast, Repelling Blast, Tenacious Plague, Vitriolic Blast, Wall of Perilous Flame, Warlock's Call

Master - Binding Blast (CM), Dark Discorporation, Dark Foresight, Eldritch Doom, Energy Immunity (DM), Path of Shadow (DM), Retributive Invisibility, Steal Summoning (CM), Utterdark Blast

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Shadowblast (Su): Before a Shadowcaster has cast even his first mysteries he develops a more crude, but no less infinite, power, his Shadowblast. With his Shadowblast, a Shadowcaster attacks foes with eldritch power, using baleful energy to deal damage and scour foes with negative effects.

Shadowblast is a ranged touch attack with medium range (100ft +10ft/caster level) that deals 1d6 damage at 1st level and an additional 1d6 damage every two levels after 1st. Anytime it would be advantageous to do so a Shadowblast deals either cold or negative energy damage (though undead never regain hit points from a Shadowblast), but otherwise it deals untyped damage from raw supernatural power.

A Shadowblast is not subject to spell resistance and though there is no saving throw to reduce or resist the damage dealt by a Shadowblast if a spell or mystery would add a special effect to it there may be a saving throw associated with that effect.

Devil's Sight (Su): At 2nd level a Shadowcaster's expertise with the mysterious shadow behind all magic grants him several advantages when dealing with other spells and magical effects.

First, he gains Darkvision out to 60ft and may even see within magical darkness.
Second, he is able to detect the presence of and the direction to any magical auras or spells being cast within 5ft per class level.
Third, he adds his class level to Spellcraft checks made to identify a spell, either as it is being cast or one that is already in effect. He may identify any spell within 5ft per class level regardless of whether he interacts with it or has line of sight to its effects.
Finally, if the Shadowcaster isn't flat-footed, he may attempt to counterspell a spell identified within 5ft per class as it is being cast once per round without having readied an action to do so. If he does, he gives up his standard action in the next round.

Damage Reduction (Su): Starting at 2nd level, a Shadowcaster's body becomes fortified with dark magic granting him Damage Reduction 1/cold iron against attacks. This DR increases by 1 at every fourth level after 2nd. At 10th level his DR may only be overcome by magical cold iron weapons. At 18th level his DR may only be overcome by epic cold iron weapons.

Deceive Item (Ex): 4th level. As Warlock.

Sustaining Shadow (Su): Beginning at 8th level a Shadowcaster no longer needs to eat, sleep, or breathe. He gains a +4 bonus to saving throws against magic Sleep effects, but he must still meditate for 4 hours before he is able to prepare his spells. Additionally, the Shadowcaster regains hit points from negative energy as an Undead creature, but responds to Cure spells and positive energy as normal.

Imbue Item (Su): 12th level. As Warlock.

Umbral Lord (Su): At 20th level a Shadowcaster's very being is suffused with raw supernatural power and his mastery over the shadow of all spells has grown to unsurpassable heights. This grants him a variety of abilities and bonuses.

His type changes to Outsider and his native plane becomes The Plane of Shadow. Within the Plane of Shadow his DR doubles and he gains Fast Healing 10. If the Shadowcaster is ever slain his body disperses into wisps of black smoke and fades away. Within 24 hours the body appears at a random location within The Plane of Shadow and 24 hours after that he is resurrected as if by True Resurrection. A Shadowcaster's resurrection can be prevented by any means that normally interfere with True Resurrection such as a Barghest's Feed attack or similar effects, or by a Wish or Miracle spell cast while touching the body.
At will, as a swift action, he may transform himself into a Nightwalker or an Elder Shadow Elemental as if via a Shapechange spell.
Finally, whenever he successfully counters a spell, the unfortunate victim must succeed on a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 Shadowcaster level + Shadowcaster's Charisma modifier) to avoid being Dimensional Anchor'd (as the spell) and Immobilized for 1d6+1 rounds, and Paralyzed for 1 round.

[Wolfrin Fenris]

My own initial thoughts are that this class has some things that need changed. Some wording especially needs changed, such as

Anytime it would be advantageous to do so a Shadowblast deals either cold or negative energy damage (though undead never regain hit points from a Shadowblast), but otherwise it deals untyped damage from raw supernatural power.

or

Starting at 6th level may a Shadowcaster learn Initiate Mysteries, and his 1st level spells are considered supernatural abilities for all situations in which it would be advantageous (but not is situations where it would be a disadvantage).

In the first case, I would say that we change it to an optional process. The shadowblast does untyped supernatural damage with the option of replacing half of the damage as either cold or negative energy, determined before the attack is made. Essentially simply removing the 'automatic' maximizing of the spells effectiveness in any situation.

For the second case, I would simply change it that 1st level spells (and all subsequent levels of spells that eventually become supernatural abilities) are always treated as supernatural abilities, once the shadowcaster reaches the appropriate level, rather then allowing them to be cast as both spells and supernatural abilities as the situation requires. This means that for this class metamagic feats are less helpful, as spells up to 4th level eventually become supernatural abilities, reducing a large portion of spells to use these feats on. This limits the Shadowcaster from outshining the pure spellcasting classes.

Insofar as the rest of the basic class advancements and such go, I see no real problems with anything being overpowered. I do have to note that this has not been converted to pathfinder yet, so skill points and available skills as well as a few other small adjustments will need to be made. As this class has no dead levels, and its overall power level seems fairly balanced (again, open to suggestions/debate) I imagine this could be converted to PF with minor hassle.

Next I want to address the spells. As you can see many of the spells have been modified in some form or another. While many of these modifications seem to be alright, there are a few things I want to address individually. A large part of why the shadowcaster from ToM seems underwhelming is that it had very few damaging spell options, and the ones it had were underpowered damage wise and gimped by saves. Some of the damage problems have been fixed for this class by adding in the warlocks blast ability, and small modifications to some of the damaging spells, but I want to propose changing a few of the spells effects, and most importantly saves, as well.

Spells:

Level 1
Black Fire: Original spell and modification both seem fine, however has a ref save negates. I propose we change this to Ref save for half as well as changing the damage to 1d8 per 2 caster levels.
Life Fades: I propose changing this back to having a fort save for the fatigue affect.
Voice of Shadow: I suggest replacing this with Arrow of Dusk, a staple from the original Shadowcaster, both for flavor, and to round out lv 1 damage dealing options.

Level 2
Bolster: This one is fine. Just wanted to clear up some wording. Proposing the shadow of the affected creature is treated as 1 category size larger then the target.
Darkfire: Simply propose changing the damage to 1d6 per level cap 5d6 at lv 5 rather than 1d6 per 2 levels cap 5d6.
Flesh Fails: I believe the choice should be changed to 1 of the given options in ToM OR all three affects at once, albeit at half the values and for half the duration.

Level 3
Shadow Vision: I could see changing this back to the original effect of only the caster receiving total concealment, but I'm not sure on this. Thoughts?
Umbral Hand: Propose we change this back to the original ToM version, albeit with a clarified slow time of 1 round per 2 caster levels.

Level 4
Greater Life Fades: I propose changing this back to the ToM version, albeit while including the caveat that a creature already exhausted who fails their saving throw is knocked unconcious.

Level 6
Greater Flesh Fails: As Flesh Fails.

Lastly, how would this be handled in regards to gestalting?

[Throndir]

I think one of our previous members brought this up before too. But +1 to the nicely formatted posts, and screenshots too lol.

I'd be fine with gestalting, as this doesn't look like anything far-fetched. I'll defer to anyone else though.

You could, if you wanted, start making your character if you planned for it. Tweaks can come later if someone had issues.

[Lance]

It seems mostly fine to me, though it leans so very slightly towards becoming too powerful in some aspects: After all, the original class had less mysteries per day and did not gain bonus mysteries from high ability scores, shadowcasters did not gain a free reserve feat in the form of Shadowblast (which feels stronger than the Warlock's signature Eldritch Blast), and, most of all, the abilities went from 1/day at 1st-6th level, 2/day at 7th level, and 3/day at 13th level to at-will-use-any-time-you-feel-like-it abilities.

Given that these abilities were balanced to be used very sparingly, that last change may be greater than what we'd initially realized. But if something does get too weak/strong too fast, it's never too late to make some changes later on.

However, have you play-tested your ideas yet? Since the shadowcaster seems closest to a warlock in both theme and mechanics, it might be a good idea to see how the two classes fair against one another at a low level (3), a mid level (10), and a high level (20). Ideally, you'd want a 50% win rate for either.

Additionally, my thoughts on the proposed changes are as follows:

Level 1
Black Fire: Original spell and modification both seem fine, however has a ref save negates. I propose we change this to Ref save for half as well as changing the damage to 1d8 per 2 caster levels. However, most, if not all, reflex-save-for-half spells/abilities have a duration of instantaneous rather than 1 round/level so while it's fine to change it to a save for half, we should keep an eye on the ability's effectiveness later. Additionally, I agree that the spell seems weak at first but it's a continuous effect that's applied every following turn for a good duration. Take, for example, a level 5 base shadowcaster which would deal a total of 15d6 damage over 5 rounds to all creatures within an ever-growing area. A modified level 5 shadowcaster would instead be dealing 15d8 damage. Not bad for a level 1 spell, right?
Life Fades: I propose changing this back to having a fort save for the fatigue affect. Since this mystery was changed to stack and cause exhaustion (target moves at half speed and takes -6 penalty to both Strength and Dexterity) after the first application, then I'd agree that having no save would put it a league above other level 1 abilities.
Voice of Shadow: I suggest replacing this with Arrow of Dusk, a staple from the original Shadowcaster, both for flavor, and to round out lv 1 damage dealing options. Rather than replace, I don't see any issue with simply adding Arrow of Dusk (as well as all other original abilities) back to the roster.

Level 2
Bolster: This one is fine. Just wanted to clear up some wording. Proposing the shadow of the affected creature is treated as 1 category size larger then the target. As a 4th-level-turned-2nd-level ability, this ability might also need some looking into but I also believe it should grow by one size category given the description.
Darkfire: Simply propose changing the damage to 1d6 per level cap 5d6 at lv 5 rather than 1d6 per 2 levels cap 5d6. Never heard about this one so I'll take your word for it.
Flesh Fails: I believe the choice should be changed to 1 of the given options in ToM OR all three affects at once, albeit at half the values and for half the duration. Now THIS is one outright deadly ability as it currently is: no saving throw ability damage that can target Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. In terms of use, perhaps some limiter can be placed on it like that "can't affect the same target for 24 hours after its most recent application" nonsense that's been catching on lately. Also, given that it can target Constitution, I don't see any reason to target a mix of all three at half value and -half duration? (I'm pretty sure the duration is instantaneous on this one)-

Level 3
Shadow Vision: I could see changing this back to the original effect of only the caster receiving total concealment, but I'm not sure on this. Thoughts? Thematically, I believe this should affect all targets rather than just the caster. It was probably changed later when it allowed the party's rogues free sneak attacks.
Umbral Hand: Propose we change this back to the original ToM version, albeit with a clarified slow time of 1 round per 2 caster levels. Infinite Shocking Grasps that also cause slow on a failed Fortitude save? Sign me up! However, duration is now nearly useless since this became an at-will power instead of a daily power.

Level 4
Greater Life Fades: I propose changing this back to the ToM version, albeit while including the caveat that a creature already exhausted who fails their saving throw is knocked unconcious. This use to be a level 7 spell; I'm beginning to see a pattern here. Anyways, given the relative strength of the shadowcaster's other abilities, I don't see any harm in letting this cause unconsciousness either.

Level 6
Greater Flesh Fails: As Flesh Fails. Same thoughts as above.

[Wolfrin Fenris]

Thanks for the feedback!

I'll just address a few points. When I went to work on this yesterday I decided to just take this class as presented and modify what I could to ensure balance. I did notice as well that some higher level abilities had been moved to much lower slots, but I didn't really think anything of it at the time. If more people show concern about this I'll see about maybe moving these back to their original spell levels and filling in gaps where needed. Additionally I have to say that I went at this trying to turn it into a full caster able to rival the other spellcaster classes. While I realize now that I don't think that should necessarily be the case XD. So lets see what I can do here.

Black Fire: I had not really taken into consideration the reoccurring nature of this spell. I was admittedly just trying to ensure that the Shadowcaster had some decent firepower for the first few levels, and had even based my changes to Black Fire, and my desire to add Arrow of Dusk into the roster, as a way to facilitate this. I would have to say we leave this with Ref-Negates.

Darkfire: The original spell is here

Spoiler

DARKFIRE
Evocation [Fire]
Level: Cleric 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 0 ft.
Effect: Flame in your palm
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
Your hand feels warm cupping the eldritch
flames. You cannot see the fire in the shadows,
but you know it is there, as will those
who will soon feel the hungry flames.
Dark flames appear in your hand. You
can hurl them or use them to touch
enemies. The flames appear in your
open hand and harm neither you nor
your equipment. They emit no light
but produce the same amount of heat
as an actual fire.
Beginning the following round, you
can strike opponents with a melee touch
attack, dealing 1d6 points of fire damage
per two caster levels (maximum 5d6).
Alternatively, you can hurl the flames up
to 120 feet as a thrown weapon. When
doing so, you make a ranged touch attack
(with no range penalty) and deal the
same damage as with the melee attack.
No sooner do you hurl the flames than
a new set appears in your hand.
The darkfire is invisible to normal
vision but can be seen with darkvision
as easily as a normal flame can be seen
in darkness (this means that darkfire
can be used as a signal or beacon for
creatures with darkvision).
The spell does not function underwater.

[close]

. I had suggested changing the damage progression because the Shadowcaster already has level 1 spells that mimic this damage in both progression and cap, and I wanted to give it a little boost. A level 2 spell with the same damage as a level one spell is often passed by. However, after Black Fire I took a second look, and I suppose the fact that this gives you damage over multiple rounds does add some utility and draw to this. If its felt that the damage progression would be too quick this could be changed back, but as the damage caps at 5d6 I don't see this growing too overpowered.

Flesh Fails: I believe I misunderstood this spell to begin with. When I read that it does ability damage, I assumed it was temporary, such as for X amount of rounds or minutes. With that said, the person who proposed this class changed this spell from doing either 4 strength, 4 dexterity, or 2 constitution ability damage to 4 str and 4 dex and 2 constitution. So when I proposed halving the values and the duration it was an attempt to nerf it slightly. In this case I would just say return to choosing ONE value to damage and adding in something similar to what you said, with a 24 timer on casting on the same target. This applies to Greater Flesh Fails as well.

Umbral Hand: After giving this a second look....This is pretty strong. However considering this is a touch attack and a shadowcaster would have to wade into the thick of battle to deliver these attacks, I feel like this limits any abuse it could have. Considering Shadowcasters have much fewer purely defensive options and focus more on debilitation and control, I don't think I'd advise any shadowcasters to make this a staple of their damage.

Lastly I wanted to mention I haven't done any play-testing yet (Mostly because I've never done that before XD) I have given testing some thought. I'll prolly make a post here shortly about some ideas I've had. Thanks again for the feedback and keep it coming XD.

[kai927]

Personally, this looks like it is trying too hard to be a warlock. So, less of a shadowcaster, and more of a reskinned warlock.

When it comes to the shadowcaster, I like to use the unofficial fix that the class's creator mentioned.

Spoiler

1) Charisma determines the DC to save against your mysteries. Intelligence determines the highest level mystery you can cast.

2) Grant bonus mysteries per day based on Charisma. These would work just like bonus spells. For instance, if your Cha is 14, you can cast one extra mystery of 1st-level equivalent and one of 2nd-level equivalent per day. (Note that each mystery does give an equivalent level, even though you don't learn them by level.)

3) Eliminate the rule that says you have to take mysteries in a given Path in order. If you want to jump around, so as to broaden your versatility, you can.

4) Within a category—Apprentice, Initiate, Master—you must have at least two mysteries of any given level before you can take any mysteries of the next higher level. For instance, you must have two 1st-level mysteries before you can take any 2nds, and at least two 2nds before you can take any 3rds.

5) Eliminate the rule that says you get a bonus feat equal to half the number of paths you have access to. Instead, you get a bonus feat equal to the total number of Paths you complete. Thus, while you are no longer required to take the entirety of a given Path, there's still encouragement to do so.

6) You may "swap out" mysteries, just as a sorcerer does spells known. If you "un-complete" a Path in this way, however, you lose access to the bonus feat you gained from completing that Path. (You can regain access by re-completing the Path, completing a different Path and choosing that feat as your new bonus, or selecting that feat as a normal feat at your next opportunity.)

7) Once your Apprentice Mysteries become supernatural abilities, change the save DC from 10 + equivalent spell level + Cha to 10 + 1/2 caster level + Cha. This makes them useful even against high-HD opponents, and follows the pattern for other supernatural abilities.

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?184955-Shadowcaster-fixes-by-Mouseferatu#ixzz3dWNLrVz2

[close]

as well as pull material from here http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?74519-Descent-of-Shadows-Project-Shadow-Returns

But if you prefer this fix, well, the first thing is that Shadowblast needs some nerfing. Functionally, it is like the warlock's Eldritch Blast, but better in almost every way. Eldritch Blast can eventually do the things that Shadowblast does, but the warlock has to spend precious invocation slots (which he only gets 13 of by level 20) to do what Shadow Blast does for free. I would make it so it only ever does untyped damage, and have a feat/Mystery or two that allows you to change it into Cold or Negative Energy damage. As well as change it from medium range to close range (25 feet + 5 feet per caster level)

At 4th level and every four levels there after a Shadowcaster may add any spell with the [Shadow], [Acid], [Cold], or [Fire] descriptors to his spell list so long as it has a spell level no higher than his highest available spell. Any [Acid], [Cold], or [Fire] spell cast by a Shadowcaster gains the [Shadow] descriptor and deals half its damage (if any) as negative energy.

Then this, I see no conceivable reason for a Shadowcaster to be getting free Fire or Acid Spells. Shadow and Cold spells, sure, but the Fire and Acid is coming straight out of the left field for me. Also, the clause that makes and Acid, Cold, or Fire spell deal half it's damage as negative energy damage would make every undead creature effectively immune to your damaging spells.

Then there are the Mysteries, which now function identically to Warlock Invocations, and in fact seems to contain most of the Blast Shape and Eldritch Essence Invocations, as well as a handful of other Invocations. And over the course of 20 levels, this Shadowcaster gets 1 less Mystery than what the Warlock gets in Invocations. So now this class is basically getting everything the Warlock gets, plus actual spellcasting on top of that. I would suggest dropping the number of Mysteries by at least 50%-75%. Otherwise this class is essentially "Warlock, but better in every conceivable way!"

Devil's Sight (Su): At 2nd level a Shadowcaster's expertise with the mysterious shadow behind all magic grants him several advantages when dealing with other spells and magical effects.

First, he gains Darkvision out to 60ft and may even see within magical darkness.
Second, he is able to detect the presence of and the direction to any magical auras or spells being cast within 5ft per class level.
Third, he adds his class level to Spellcraft checks made to identify a spell, either as it is being cast or one that is already in effect. He may identify any spell within 5ft per class level regardless of whether he interacts with it or has line of sight to its effects.
Finally, if the Shadowcaster isn't flat-footed, he may attempt to counterspell a spell identified within 5ft per class as it is being cast once per round without having readied an action to do so. If he does, he gives up his standard action in the next round.

The first two effects are fine, a bit powerful for level two, but not game breaking. As is the first half of the third ability, though I would drop it down to 1/2 class level.  The second half of the third ability is quite strong though. As is the final ability of this class feature. I don't know of any class that gets to do either of these, and if they do exist, I doubt they can do it at level 2.  Giving up your standard action on your next round and the rather short range of it mitigates the ability some, but it still seems too much for 2nd level. I would either drop it or at least push it back so that you don't get the last 1.5 abilities until after level 10 at the earliest.

His type changes to Outsider and his native plane becomes The Plane of Shadow. Within the Plane of Shadow his DR doubles and he gains Fast Healing 10. If the Shadowcaster is ever slain his body disperses into wisps of black smoke and fades away. Within 24 hours the body appears at a random location within The Plane of Shadow and 24 hours after that he is resurrected as if by True Resurrection. A Shadowcaster's resurrection can be prevented by any means that normally interfere with True Resurrection such as a Barghest's Feed attack or similar effects, or by a Wish or Miracle spell cast while touching the body.
At will, as a swift action, he may transform himself into a Nightwalker or an Elder Shadow Elemental as if via a Shapechange spell.
Finally, whenever he successfully counters a spell, the unfortunate victim must succeed on a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 Shadowcaster level + Shadowcaster's Charisma modifier) to avoid being Dimensional Anchor'd (as the spell) and Immobilized for 1d6+1 rounds, and Paralyzed for 1 round.

Then the capstone ability. It should stop at making you an outsider with the special bonuses on the plane of shadow. The auto resurrection is iffy, perhaps change it so that instead of a random location on the shadow plane, the body appears at the location analogous to the location it died in, and does not function at all when on any plane that is not connected to the Plane of Shadow. The rest of the abilities just should not be there. The last one is a capstone ability by itself, and the second one, as a swift action, and as often as you want, allows you to turn into one of the most powerful non-template core book undead (and the Nightwalker remains in the top 10 with most of the non-epic undead added in supplement books) or turn into, well, one of the weaker elementals. Regardless, since you appear to keep all of your class features, that greatly increases the power of those forms. The ability, as is, is something for the epic levels. Nerfing it down to 1 or 2 times per day and for 1 to 2 minutes at most might drop it down to a stand alone capstone ability.

I haven't given an in depth look at the spells yet, but from a quick skim, they seem to be stronger versions of the standard Shadowcaster's Mysteries. Which may or may not be an issue depending on the spell.

So, spells aside, this class just comes off as a much more powerful warlock with a slight shadow theme.

[kai927]

Oh, and I apologize if that came off as being overly harsh or rude, that was not my intention at all.

[Wolfrin Fenris]

Hello! Thanks for the feedback. I did see your shadowcaster topic here on the forums, and I even managed to look up the original thread where the creator discussed his reasoning behind the original and then his proposed changes. Just to let you know I didn't completely miss that or anything, I still felt that the shadowcaster as a whole was a bit weak though and that's why I kept searching.

Some of the issues with the class is the design idea of taking two separate classes that while slightly underpowered we're still playable, and combining them in a way that retains flavor and doesn't equal an OP godlike class XD. Tough bill to fill. So let me take a look at your suggestions and we'll see what else we can change.

Shadowblast: As far as this goes, with both you and lance commenting on the power of the shadow blast, I'm inclined to agree about toning down its damage. I knew from the beginning letting the ability auto-maximize would both be too strong, and slightly un-fun. The creator of this hybrid included the idea of changing the damage types on the fly in both spells and the shadowblast. However changing the option of cold damage or negative damage to a bonus feat (Or feats) is also a good idea and another way to tone down the power.

At 4th level and every four levels there after a Shadowcaster may add any spell with the [Shadow], [Acid], [Cold], or [Fire] descriptors to his spell list so long as it has a spell level no higher than his highest available spell. Any [Acid], [Cold], or [Fire] spell cast by a Shadowcaster gains the [Shadow] descriptor and deals half its damage (if any) as negative energy.

As for this I like the idea of being able to expand the shadowcasters spell list and adapt certain conventional spells in a way that makes it the shadowcaster's own. Where it's only 1 spell per 4 levels, and limited to spells the same level or lower as the highest spell the SC can cast, I felt this was pretty balanced already. I think an argument could be made that fire and acid relate to a warlocks powers the way cold and shadow relate to a shadowcaster's powers. Where this is an amalgamation of the two classes, I'm actually more inclined to leave this the way it is. However, that being said, if you could name any particular cheese that the SC2.0 can achieve because of this, I would be more than willing to agree to limit this to Shadow and Cold. I like the flavor of the idea, but I don't think this should necessarily increase the SC2.0's power.

The second part of this, where it changes half its damage as negative damage, I believe I meant to address that in my original post of balance suggestions and somehow skimmed over it. In the same way I suggested the shadow blast changes, I believe this should be changed to be included in the feat that addresses the same issue with the shadow blast.

Then there are the Mysteries, which now function identically to Warlock Invocations, and in fact seems to contain most of the Blast Shape and Eldritch Essence Invocations, as well as a handful of other Invocations. And over the course of 20 levels, this Shadowcaster gets 1 less Mystery than what the Warlock gets in Invocations. So now this class is basically getting everything the Warlock gets, plus actual spellcasting on top of that. I would suggest dropping the number of Mysteries by at least 50%-75%. Otherwise this class is essentially "Warlock, but better in every conceivable way!"

I see what your saying here, and I hadn't actually realized that this class gets the same amount of mysteries as the warlock gets invocations. While I don't believe the point of this class should be to make the original classes its based off of obsolete, I'm also hesitant to agree to such a radical power change. I really don't know on this particular issue. I would like to see what others have to say on this before a change is made, so hopefully we can get more people commenting on this. I can definitely see a power reduction of some kind, but perhaps someone will have a clever idea on how to do so besides a straight reduction.

Devil's Sight (Su): At 2nd level a Shadowcaster's expertise with the mysterious shadow behind all magic grants him several advantages when dealing with other spells and magical effects.

First, he gains Darkvision out to 60ft and may even see within magical darkness.
Second, he is able to detect the presence of and the direction to any magical auras or spells being cast within 5ft per class level.
Third, he adds his class level to Spellcraft checks made to identify a spell, either as it is being cast or one that is already in effect. He may identify any spell within 5ft per class level regardless of whether he interacts with it or has line of sight to its effects.
Finally, if the Shadowcaster isn't flat-footed, he may attempt to counterspell a spell identified within 5ft per class as it is being cast once per round without having readied an action to do so. If he does, he gives up his standard action in the next round.

I'm gonna say I pretty much agree 100% here. Darkvision is not overpowered in itself for second level, although seeing through magical darkness is certainly more so. However it fits the flavor well. Detecting magical auras and spells being cast is kinda iffy but the 5ft per class level certainly helps tone this down. However I don't like that all these effects are just grouped together at second level. It makes more sense from a roleplaying perspective and flavor wise for these to be attributes developed over time working with the shadow magics and eldritch essences. I would suggest a different progression. 2nd level gains darkvision, 5th level gains detection of magical auras or spells cast within 5ft per class level, and 9th level gains the third effect, which by that time shouldn't be overpowered.

As for the fourth effect, I could honestly see removing it entirely. It's a very cool mechanic and I think in another class designed around the concept of besting mages it could still be balanced, but for the Shadowcaster 2.0, or even the original shadowcaster or warlock, this just doesnt fit the flavor of the class.

His type changes to Outsider and his native plane becomes The Plane of Shadow. Within the Plane of Shadow his DR doubles and he gains Fast Healing 10. If the Shadowcaster is ever slain his body disperses into wisps of black smoke and fades away. Within 24 hours the body appears at a random location within The Plane of Shadow and 24 hours after that he is resurrected as if by True Resurrection. A Shadowcaster's resurrection can be prevented by any means that normally interfere with True Resurrection such as a Barghest's Feed attack or similar effects, or by a Wish or Miracle spell cast while touching the body.
At will, as a swift action, he may transform himself into a Nightwalker or an Elder Shadow Elemental as if via a Shapechange spell.
Finally, whenever he successfully counters a spell, the unfortunate victim must succeed on a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 Shadowcaster level + Shadowcaster's Charisma modifier) to avoid being Dimensional Anchor'd (as the spell) and Immobilized for 1d6+1 rounds, and Paralyzed for 1 round.

This one actually made me cringe cause I never had the intention of taking this class to lv 20 and therefore....basically ignored this. I shouldn't have however, so lets address it. First, for the last effect involving countering a spell. If we take my suggestion to remove this ability from the SC2.0's roster, we can just ignore this essentially.

Secondly, I don't know why the creator believed an automatic revival ability would be balanced, but I also believe this should be thrown out. Perhaps the change to an Outsider with the appropriate modifications that comes with that, and the ability to shapeshift into a nightwalker or elder shadow elemental (I have not looked at these creatures yet and am taking these as good faith) 2 or 3 times a day for 2 minutes should be the capstone. Essentially what you suggested lol.

Oh, and I apologize if that came off as being overly harsh or rude, that was not my intention at all.

Not taken that way at all :P  Its always good to get other peoples opinions and ideas. I enjoy discussing dnd in general, and in particular I love to theory craft pretty much any game related material. So balancing this class, for me, is actually enjoyable. Looking forward to more feedback :)

[kai927]

After giving the class another look over, I think the biggest issue with the class, is that the creator is slamming two very different classes together. The Warlock was designed to be a ranged blaster (though with the right feats, warlocks were terrifying in melee) while the Shadowcaster is more of a support caster/Battlefield controller.

As the class is, it is trying to do too many things at once. Shadowblast + Mysteries want to make it a warlock-y blaster, while the spell selection seems more of a battlefield controller type. I think a lot of this could be fixed by making it choose a single focus. Something like this:

Shadowblaster: Gain the Shadowblast (without the automatic damage shifting) and Mysteries as listed, but reduced spell access, with capping the spells to 4th-6th level at the max.

OR

Shadowcaster: Reduced Shadowblast and Mysteries, but increased casting, with the spell list modding ability largely unaltered.

The rest of the abilities that don't affect either style would apply just fine, with the modifications mentioned here, and the same modifications to the spells as well.