[feat] Words of Creation

[Mysticsage]

So in the spirit of fairness i'm putting this up for gm discussion as a feat that is overpowered but I really want for Kryas

This is a cannon ability  from the Book of Exalted deeds

to make it more fair i suggest breaking this into four separate Feats by the major powers


Words of Creation

Prerequisite(s): Int 15+, Cha 15+, Base Will save 5+

Benefit: You can use the words of creation to enhance Bardic Music, help cast Good Spells, create Good magic items and enhance the creation process.

The words of creation are fragments of a lost language thought to be a precursor of the celestial tongue. Very few celestials remember some of these words, and even fewer mortals access to one or two of them as well. So great is their power, that no mortal mind can comprehend more than three or four words, and no evil tongue can speak them or bear their sound. A character must take this feat to use the words in any fashion. It is possible, though difficult, to communicate entirely using the words of creation. It has no words for evil concepts such as misery, despair, hate and betrayal, while the subtlety of it's terminology for beauty, kindness and mercy is astonishing. It has no written form, and is transliterated into writing it loses all power and meaning. Besides communication, there are four ways to use the words of creation.

Celestial Choir: The words of creation can be woven into song, forming music that surpasses any earthly melody and echoes the grandeur of the music of the heavens. A bard who has the Words of Creation feat can use these powerful words to enhance his bardic music. The use of the words this way is extremely draining, and the bard takes 1d4 non lethal damage per rank of perform required to produce the bardic music effect he is enhancing. The Words of Creation affect bardic music in the following ways:

Inspire Courage: Double the morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear and the morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls.

Inspire Competence: +4 Competence bonus to all skill checks.

Inspire Greatness: Gain 4 bonus Hit Dice (d10), the commensurate number of temporary hit points (add Con Modifier), +4 bonus on attack and +2 bonus on Fortitude.

Inspire Heroics: +8 morale bonus on saving throws, +8 dodge bonus to AC.

For bardic music abilities that require a perform check, the Wordsgrant a +4 bonus to the bard. The words also increase the save DC by 2 for Suggestion and Dominate and increases the bard's effective caster level by 2 for Song of Freedom.

Creation: In accordance with their original purpose, the wprds can greatly enhance the process of creation. If they are spoken as part of a casting for a Conjuration spell, the duration of the spell is doubled. Instantaneous spells are not effected. If the words are spoken during the crafting process, they grant the crafter a +4 bonus to the check. These uses of the words in this way, do not drain the speaker at all.

Exaulted Power: The Words of Creation help energize Good Magic Items and Spells. If used in conjunction with a good spell that has a verbal component, the Spell DC is increased by 1. If used in creating a good magic item, the words increase the casters effective level by 1 without increasing the cost. Using the words to enhance good spells deals 1d4 points of non lethal damage to the caster per 2 spell levels of the spell cast. Using the words to enhance a magic item does no non lethal damage.

True Name: Each creature has a unique True Name among the words of creation. No mortal is familiar with the countless true names of every creature in the world, no matter how extensively he has studied the words. Nevertheless, a creature familiar with the words of creation can research a specific creature's true name if he has access to Legend Lore and either Contact other Plane or Commune. Researching a true name is like researching a new spell. It requires one week per 2HD of the creature and an expenditure of 1000gps per week. The character must cast (or have cast for him) Legend Lore, once each week, but the material component cost is included in the research cost. At the end of the research time, the creature must cast commune or contact other plane, paying the XP cost for commune if necessary. He then makes a Knowledge check, using the specialty appropriate to the target creature's type (arcana for a construct or dragon, religion for an undead,etc). The DC is 10 + the creatures HD. If the check succeeds, the character has discovered the creatures true name. If the check fails, the character must pay the research cost again if he wants to keep trying.

Once a character has discovered a creature's true name, he can exercise his power over that creature in a number of different ways:

Impose Penalty: He can impose a -4 penalty to the creature's saving throws to resist a particular compulsion spell or effect.

Reduce Spell Resistance/Damage Reduction: He can reduce the creature's spell resistance by 4 or it's Damage reduction by 5. This effect lasts 1 minute.

Cast Teleport: He can cast Teleport or Greater Teleport on the creature without including himself as the target of the spell.

Compel Service: He can gain a +6 bonus for opposed Cha checks to compell service from the creature after he summons it with a planar binding spell.

Each of these actions are a full round action, which includes speaking the creature's true name and a binding incantation in the Words of Creation. Uttering the incantation deals 5d6 points of non lethal damage to the speaker. The character and the creature do not have to be in the same area or even the same plane. It is possible, for example, to reduce a creature's spell resistance before using planar binding to summon it to the material plane. The one exception to this is the Teleport function, which requires the speaker to touch the creature after speaking it's true name and incantation.

Source: Book of Exalted Deeds

[Throndir]

http://marksworld.zeemer.com/files/feats/featlibrary/wordsofcreation.html

Didn't really take a deep look at it or give this much thought, but given that none of the other DMs offered any input. I'll put in some thought into this.

I'm asking the other DMs to at least offer some insight, so we can iron this out completely.



Prereqs to Feat Strength
Because of the Base Will Save +5 entry requirement, this should be aligned with the strength of a feat with around +6 BAB requirement. True, there is a intelligence and charisma requirement for the feat, but 15+ for both are achievable at level 1, so I'm focusing on the Will Save requirement, which is minimum a level 6 character, with Will being a Good save.

So I'll compare this feat, with feats of that level (feats achievable at around level 6). Just to give examples, some common/well-known feats with around +6 BAB/6 Ranks in a skill/6th level requirement are: Great Cleave, Greater Disarm, Greater Feint, Many Shot, Snap Shot, Vital Strike, Demon Hunter.

Already, taking the Words of Creation feat as it, we're running into a problem; too much benefits for such low requirements.

Your Proposed Revision - The 4-Way Split
Splitting the feat into 4 pieces is the way to go. But note the split you're considering, this is what we get (one line for each benefit).



Celestial Choir - Take 1d4 non-lethal damage

• Inspire Courage: Double the morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear and the morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls.
  
• Inspire Competence: +4 Competence bonus to all skill checks.
  
• Inspire Greatness: Gain 4 bonus Hit Dice (d10), the commensurate number of temporary hit points (add Con Modifier), +4 bonus on attack and +2 bonus on Fortitude.
  
• Inspire Heroics: +8 morale bonus on saving throws, +8 dodge bonus to AC.
  
• For bardic music abilities that require a perform check, the Wordsgrant a +4 bonus to the bard.
  
• The words also increase the save DC by 2 for Suggestion and Dominate and increases the bard's effective caster level by 2 for Song of Freedom.
  

Creation - No negative drawbacks

• In accordance with their original purpose, the wprds can greatly enhance the process of creation. If they are spoken as part of a casting for a Conjuration spell, the duration of the spell is doubled. Instantaneous spells are not effected.
  
• If the words are spoken during the crafting process, they grant the crafter a +4 bonus to the check.
  

Exaulted Power - Drawbacks are different for each entry

• If used in conjunction with a good spell that has a verbal component, the Spell DC is increased by 1. Using the words to enhance good spells deals 1d4 points of non lethal damage to the caster per 2 spell levels of the spell cast.
  
• If used in creating a good magic item, the words increase the casters effective level by 1 without increasing the cost. Using the words to enhance a magic item does no non lethal damage.
  
  True Name - Requires extensive research of 1000gp per week, and casting of Legend Lore once per week. Research time is 1 week per 2HD of the target creature. Usage of abilities is full-round, and take 5d6 nonlethal damage.
  
  • Impose Penalty: He can impose a -4 penalty to the creature's saving throws to resist a particular compulsion spell or effect.
    
  • Reduce Spell Resistance/Damage Reduction: He can reduce the creature's spell resistance by 4 or it's Damage reduction by 5. This effect lasts 1 minute.
    
  • Cast Teleport: He can cast Teleport or Greater Teleport on the creature without including himself as the target of the spell.
    
  • Compel Service: He can gain a +6 bonus for opposed Cha checks to compell service from the creature after he summons it with a planar binding spell.
    
  
  
  The Comparison
  Let's take a look at some of the 6th level requirement base Pathfinder feats I noted above.
  
  
  
  Snap Shot
  
  • Threatens any area 5 ft of you while wielding a ranged weapon.
    
  Manyshot
  
  • Fire two arrows with the first shot in a full-attack action. Effective +1 attack.
    
  Vital Strike
  
  • Roll a second attack. Effective +1 attack.
    
  Demon Hunter
  
  • +2 planes knowledge related with demons.
    
  • +2 attack bonus vs demons.
    
  • +2 caster level checks to penetrate spell resistance against demons
    
  Greater Disarm
  
  • +2 to disarm a foe.
    
  • Disarmed weapon lands 15 ft. away in a random direction.
    
  
  
  Analysis
  Even just taking that sample size, at least in my opinion, we're already seeing a problem. Even with the 4-way split, the base/vanilla Pathfinder feats simply pale in comparison. Most of them have around 2 benefits, yet each of the 4 split feats from Words of Creation are still greatly powerful (some more so than the rest).
  
  Before I get to my suggested revision, do any of the other DMs have any comments?

[Linwelin]

Almost precisely what I was going to hit on. Even with the split, it's extremely powerful for the level you achieve it, which would doubtlessly be 6. Were it for a higher level, this would actually be quite balanced, since many of the effects for the large-scale portions can only be achieved past level 10 (Commune and Teleport are not gained by bards, requiring multi-class), and you cannot use the effect more than like 3 times in an encounter or you'll pass out from non-lethal damage.

But I'd consider this a paragon-tier (CL 10+) feat. This is only opinion, though. I'm totally up for discussing. What were your conclusive thoughts, Throndir?

[Mysticsage]

Almost precisely what I was going to hit on. Even with the split, it's extremely powerful for the level you achieve it, which would doubtlessly be 6. Were it for a higher level, this would actually be quite balanced, since many of the effects for the large-scale portions can only be achieved past level 10 (Commune and Teleport are not gained by bards, requiring multi-class), and you cannot use the effect more than like 3 times in an encounter or you'll pass out from non-lethal damage.

That is something to think about as well this feat even for celestial choir is gated by higher level abilities for full use. Bards get inspire heroics and inspire greateness at much higher levels without a prestige class meaning that those two abilities are also locked away making this more of a teired feat then anything else. similar to how bonuses from skill focus compound at later levels ect.

In fact now that I think about it this feat functions almost exactly like a sorcerer's bloodline class ability that is staggered like this

[Throndir]

Problem is that there's no precendence for multi-level feats. Class abilties are usually always tiered which is why the Words of Creation stuff really fit better mechanically and design-wise as something that should go into a class. That said, there is precendence for tiered requirement feats. Some feats, just to list the common trees we all know.



Power Attack
-> Cleave
--> Great Cleave
--> Cleaving Finish
---> Improved Cleaving Finish

Dodge
-> Mobility
-> Spring Attack
--> Whirlwind Attack
-> Combat Patrol
--> Disengaging Shot



Proposal

For one thing, each of these entries abive are separate feats, rather than one monolithic feat that new 'abilities' get unlocked after a certain level. Going with this design of a 'multi-layered' feats, which we have plenty of precendece for, I would almost recommend the following set of feats to replace Words of Creation.

Celestial Choir
Prerequisite: Int 13, Cha 13
Benefit: For bardic music abilities that require a perform check, the Wordsgrant a +4 bonus to the bard. The words also increase the save DC by 2 for Suggestion and Dominate and increases the bard's effective caster level by 2 for Song of Freedom.
Normal:
Special:

Improved Inspire Courage
Prerequisite: Int 15, Cha 15, Celestial Choir, Base Will Save +6, Inspire Courage ability
Benefit: Double the morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear and the morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls.
Normal:
Special:

Improved Inspire Competence
Prerequisite: Int 15, Cha 15, Celestial Choir, Base Will Save +6, Inspire Competence ability
Benefit: +4 Competence bonus to all skill checks.
Normal:
Special:

Improved Inspire Greatness
Prerequisite: Int 15, Cha 15, Celestial Choir, Base Will Save +6, Inspire Greatness ability
Benefit: Gain 4 bonus Hit Dice (d10), the commensurate number of temporary hit points (add Con Modifier), +4 bonus on attack and +2 bonus on Fortitude.
Normal:
Special:

Inspire Heroics
Prerequisite: Int 15, Cha 15, Celestial Choir, Base Will Save +6, Inspire Heroics ability
Benefit: Inspire Heroics: +8 morale bonus on saving throws, +8 dodge bonus to AC.
Normal:
Special:

Words of Creation (Conjuration)
Prerequisite: Int 13, Cha 13
Benefit: In accordance with their original purpose, the words can greatly enhance the process of creation. If they are spoken as part of a casting for a Conjuration spell, the duration of the spell is doubled. Instantaneous spells are not effected.
Normal:

Words of Creation (Crafting)
Prerequisite: Int 13, Cha 13
Benefit: If the words are spoken during the crafting process, they grant the crafter a +4 bonus to the check.
Normal:

Exaulted Power
Prerequisite: None
Benefit: If used in conjunction with a good spell that has a verbal component, the Spell DC is increased by 1. If used in creating a good magic item, the words increase the casters effective level by 1 without increasing the cost.
Normal:



No True Name
The lack of True Name in the feats above, is simply because the mechanics of how True Name works have no precendence in Pathfinder. I know there were Prestige classes that had monetary costs in order to gain some sort of benefit as a special feature of the class, however, I don't believe I've ever seen anything like that in feat form. If anything the True Name feat can be added to the weak Truenamer class back in 3.5 if someone wanted to port it over.

Closing Thoughts
Going with the above proposal, we can keep inline with the design for the other vanilla feats of Pathfinder that take a multi-layered approach. This is preferred to a monolithic feat that unlocks 'upgrades' the further you are into it. Eg, I'm not what I'd think if we had a feat called:

Power Attack Tree
Prerequisite: Str 13, base attack bonus +4
Benefit: You can choose to take a -1 penalty to all melee attack rolls and gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2.

You can also choose to make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the previous foe and also within reach. If you hit, you can continue to make attacks against foes adjacent to the previous foe, so long as they are within your reach. You cannot attack an individual foe more than once during this attack action. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.

The Power Attack Tree feat also enables the condition if you make a melee attack, and your target drops to 0 or fewer hit points as a result of your attack, you can make another melee attack using your highest base attack bonus against another opponent within reach. You can make only one extra attack per round with this feature.



Any suggestions?